Southern hemisphee discussion

[slayer]

Hi
I advise to read this and his articles at guiculture.com and comment plase:

 From Dr Ong: I have prepared a provisional answer to be loaded later into my website:  www.guiculture.com/fs09luopansouth3.htm .  You can let me know your comments on this.
 


28th March 2009

 

Dear
 

Thank you for another email.

 

It would have been good if we can marshal enough cases to show whether the Bagua should be changed for the Southern Hemisphere.  However, by asking about case examples, you have stepped into a minefield on what Feng Shui practitioners take as "case examples."

 

 

 

One San Yuan master told me how he once used to swear by San He principles but now has rejected them.  He particularly declared that Ba Zhai (8 Mansions) is a fraudulent theory created by the emperor to fool people.  He would be like Shen Zhureng who also gave up his San He and became famous as a Xuan Kong Fei Xing master.  Of course, there is the famous story of how Tan Yang Wu denounced his Fei Xing school around 1928 in favour of Xuan Kong Liu Fa, implicating that his previous Fei Xing cases were nonsense. 

 

One Xuan Kong Fei Xing student gleefully told me that he had a case which "proves" Fei Xing.  He told me that he did an audit for a family and found that the forecast particularly fit the daughter.  Think.  There would be at least 4 members in the family.  How come he did not boast that his forecast was also true for the parents?  His case looked true only for one out of four!    This person was not thinking and his case is actually a proof that his Fei Xing did not work. 

 

This student was unaware that his own founding grandmaster Tan Yang Wu had already renounced that very school of Fei Xing which was taught to this student.

 

There was also an article on San He use of 120 Gold Divisions for correcting a tomb. The Ba Zi astrology of the man concerned showed that he was suposed to be a well known political figure, but he ended up just a gang leader.  On examining his ancestor tomb it was found that the tomb was well placed and had a Black Dragon formation which should confer military greatness on the descendants.  Supposed small errors caused the man to become a gangster instead of a successul general and political figure like his father.  On using the 120 Gold Divsions in "correcting the tomb", the man finally succeeded in business and his sons became a doctor and engineer. 

 

This is a case which shows how subjective the interpretations had been.  Since when are a doctor and engineer to be equated with "military greatness"?  The man did not become a political figure but instead was merely successful in small business.  It did not occur to the person posting this case example that the original Feng Shui and also Ba Zi prognosis were very incorrect!  These people merely force the conflicting facts to fit their theories.

 

Actually, "Black Dragon" does not signify "military greatness".  "Military greatness" is symbolised by "White Dragon" (i.e. White Tiger).  "Black Dragon" signifies strategic talents and does include doctors and engineers! Perhaps the calculations were right but the wrong prognosis had been made?  Perhaps the real effects bypassed the man and affected his sons.  I do not fully know, as I would have to examine that case more closely and perhaps one case proves nothing.

 

These above cases are too common where people try to force the evidence to support their theories. They would all unthinkingly swear by their cases until the accumulated errors blew up in their faces.  Some cases may be right, but they need to be backed up by scientific reasoning.

 

Have the conflicting schools like Yang Gong, Ba Zhai, Xuan Kong Fei Xing, Xuan Kong Da Gua and Xuan Kong Liu Fa present their "case examples" to show how right they are?  Or would they regale you with stories like the above which are never subjected to scientific reasoning and statistical analysis and can prove nothing?  If you are knowledgeable enough you may be able to spot errors.

 

How do you want "case examples" which are foolproof?  You must have something which can transcend the warring schools.  Thus, I have undertaken scientific statistical analysis on many cases in Feng Shui and astrology - this approach is the best.  I have proven a number of Feng Shui and astrology principles by this method. Unfortunately, essentially, if we offer such case examples, they will not convince these people who are not used to scientifically analysing what they say.  Lacking scientific understanding, such cases will be "Greek" to them. 

 

It is not so simple to gather proper cases to statistically prove or disprove in the world of Feng Shui.   I used to be a research scientist and am very familiar with statistical analysis - but can I expect others to have the same yardstick?

 

Feng Shui masters like to claim that Feng Shui relates to the environment.  Perhaps, we can fall back onto another more understandable scientific approach, which is to see if there is any scientific rationale, like our reasoning about the seasonal variations of the solar shadow and the Yin Yang diagram.  This scientific rational approach can never rival the statistical approach but is still far better than all the mystical fanciful conjecture so common in the Feng Shui world.  But, surprisingly, the Feng Shui practitioners have not explained on proper scientific basis but go on to use mystical explanations.  One particular mystical fallacy is to use numerology like "one plus one become three."  Numbers are combined and mysteriously are supposed to exert effects - what nonsense!

 

As one well known San Yuan master admitted to me, Feng Shui masers are not astronomers and asronomers are not Feng Shui masters. I should add, the Feng Shui practitioners are not geographers either. 

 

Coming back more specifically to your question about case examples for the Southern Hemisphere.  You have missed the one great point  The several hundreds years old texts of Yang Yun Sung and Lai Bu Yi condemn the usage of the Bagua to determine the auspiciousness of a site! 

 

The auspiciousness of site cannot be determined by the Bagua but by the Luan Tuo Form methods.  What Yang Yun Sung and Lai Bu Yi showed is that after using Luan Tuo methods to determine the auspiciousness of the site, this auspiciousness can be varied by Time factors.  These Time factors are also explained by Yang Yun Sung and Lai Bu Yi in their writings.  Unfortunately, much of these Time principles have been misunderstood and many wrong concepts appear as misleading rings in the Luopan. 

 

There is a proper usage of the Bagua, but practitioners have to unravel the confusion in the Luopan before coming to a knowledge of the correct way to use the Bagua.  The original Yang Yun Sung and Jiang Da Hong Luopans are simple with few rings, of which the 28 Lunar Constellations ring is there.  These 28 Lunar Constellations obviously relate to a proper interaction with the Bagua.  Do you know how to use the 28 Lunar Constellations - if not, can you say that you really understand the Bagua?

 

I am not San He or San Yuan, nor Form or Compass.  Their theories have their rights and wrongs.  But we need some objective scientific approach to show which is which.  I like to believe that the scientific Feng Shui I am researching is the type taught by Yang Yun Sung and Lai Bu Yi and went back even to Confucius and before.  Their Feng Shui was and is still  scientific and can be scientifically demonstrated.  If it can be scientifically demonstrated, then the applications are more likely to generate real scientific effects. 

 

Whatever I can prove I hold on strongly.  Whatever I cannot prove - let leave the field open, OK?

 

By the way, please explain to me what Feng Shui you have learnt?   Perhaps, this way I can offer you more precise explanations to your "hot" questions.

 

Why don't you try to present something with good reasons to me and I can evaluate?

 

You are curious and it may be your Destiny to know more,

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Speaking about case examples for the Southern Hemisphere, ask yourself if there are case examples showing that the Bagua works in the Northern Hemisphere.  For, the joke is that the contradicting schools all have their contradicting pet case examples "proving they are right and the other schools are wrong"!  The Bagua has to be evaluated through some objective criteria.  But, is the San He or San Yuan usage of the Bagua more accurate? 

http://www.guiculture.com/fs09luopansouth.htm

[Ken]

Thanks for sharing this insightful article.

Even before this article surfaced, the objective and scientific part of my brain always had some reservation if we can use unadapted Ba Zi theory to read for people born in the southern hemisphere.  There are 2 schools of thought to this :-

1) That the principles of the seasonal fluctations, 5 elements, Yin Yang movement are all scientific and logical explanation of the dynamic configurations of the Ba Gua, Taiji and more.  If we adopt this view, definitely the Ba Gua and other metaphysics art linked with the sun, the season cannot be replicated for use for people or houses in the southern hemisphere

2) That the principles of the seasonal fluctuation, 5 elements, Yin Yang movement are non-scientific explanations of the dynamic configurations of the Ba Gua, Taiji and more.  They are merely after-the-fact juxtapositions to make it easier for people to learn metaphysics without having to rely entirely on memory work.  If we adopt this view, it means the Ba Gua is not related to the seasons and the sun.  Using seasons to explain Ba Gua is merely to make it easier than rote learning.  Chinese metaphysics is then a statistical science or observational science which cannot be entirely explained in hard science principles.  In the study of statistics, we use different type of distribution curves to cater to different family of events or objects.  These distribution curves cannot be logically explained yet the frequency of the event taking place pans out consistently within statistically significant portion of the statistical distribution curves.  If we adopt this view, then, the Ba Gua and most other Chinese Metaphysics art can still be used in the southern hemisphere without modification.

I have all along held the view that Chinese Metaphysics is not a field that is scientific.  To me it is most appropriate to be classified as a statistical subject with small portions of scientific principle and arts & social science imbued in it.  Despite this stance, I am not ready to conclude if we can use the Ba Gua in the southern hemisphere without modification because I do not have enough Southern Hemisphere case studies to correlate the significance of the results to the theory.  Nor can I lay claim to understanding what was the basis, parameter and implicit assumptions to their explanation of the Ba Gua et al.

But I must share that so far the anecdotal evidence from a few friends in the southern hemisphere does lend suggestion that the Chinese Metaphysics theory can be applied in the southern hemisphere without adaptation.  However since these cases are not many, not sufficient to be statistically significant to convince Dr Ong, I reserved my comments on this.

My advice to people hoping to provide Chinese Metaphysics services in the southern hemisphere is to consider pick up Zi Wei Dou Shu instead of Ba Zi.  Zi Wei Dou Shu’s evolvement has no link with the sun and seasonal fluctuation. 

I do agree with this author that a lot of the practitioners in this field have been unconvincing, subjective or even suffered from compulsive placebo.  Some are a case of the blind following a blind.  Others think by following classical text to a T, they are adopting best Feng Shui practices.  Let’s not forget there is a context behind every classical text.  It is also foolish to think every classical text are written, printed or passed down correctly to modern time practitioners.   What makes matter worse is that this field is not entirely science given some of its art and observational science roots, and therefore looks mystical or hogwash to people who are unable to comprehend a sophisticated system.  It is for these reasons that Feng Shui was banned or had restricted circulation during certain era or certain dynasty.  Over the decades and centuries, some information would have been misplaced, some would have been warped and the rest would have been manipulated.  These developments lend to the presence of quacks and half-baked practitioners that give Feng Shui a bad name.  A conscientious practitioner should identify the relevant and correct theory to use and adapt them to the modern context.

Last but not least, despite viewing Chinese Metaphysics in the similar mould as Statistical Study, I will never put it in the same league.  This is because in carrying out statistical experiments, it is easy to control the environment and the statistical objects because they are inanimate.  In Chinese Metaphysics, we are dealing with humans and both external and internal environments which are highly dynamic.  Even if we manage to isolate the humans for Chinese Metaphysics statistical correlation study, we cannot control fully the environment of any Chinese Metaphysics statistical experiment.

[slayer]

Thanks for sharing this insightful article.

Even before this article surfaced, the objective and scientific part of my brain always had some reservation if we can use unadapted Ba Zi theory to read for people born in the southern hemisphere.  There are 2 schools of thought to this :-

1) That the principles of the seasonal fluctations, 5 elements, Yin Yang movement are all scientific and logical explanation of the dynamic configurations of the Ba Gua, Taiji and more.  If we adopt this view, definitely the Ba Gua and other metaphysics art linked with the sun, the season cannot be replicated for use for people or houses in the southern hemisphere

2) That the principles of the seasonal fluctuation, 5 elements, Yin Yang movement are non-scientific explanations of the dynamic configurations of the Ba Gua, Taiji and more.  They are merely after-the-fact juxtapositions to make it easier for people to learn metaphysics without having to rely entirely on memory work.  If we adopt this view, it means the Ba Gua is not related to the seasons and the sun.  Using seasons to explain Ba Gua is merely to make it easier than rote learning.  Chinese metaphysics is then a statistical science or observational science which cannot be entirely explained in hard science principles.  In the study of statistics, we use different type of distribution curves to cater to different family of events or objects.  These distribution curves cannot be logically explained yet the frequency of the event taking place pans out consistently within statistically significant portion of the statistical distribution curves.  If we adopt this view, then, the Ba Gua and most other Chinese Metaphysics art can still be used in the southern hemisphere without modification.

I have all along held the view that Chinese Metaphysics is not a field that is scientific.  To me it is most appropriate to be classified as a statistical subject with small portions of scientific principle and arts & social science imbued in it.  Despite this stance, I am not ready to conclude if we can use the Ba Gua in the southern hemisphere without modification because I do not have enough Southern Hemisphere case studies to correlate the significance of the results to the theory.  Nor can I lay claim to understanding what was the basis, parameter and implicit assumptions to their explanation of the Ba Gua et al.

But I must share that so far the anecdotal evidence from a few friends in the southern hemisphere does lend suggestion that the Chinese Metaphysics theory can be applied in the southern hemisphere without adaptation.  However since these cases are not many, not sufficient to be statistically significant to convince Dr Ong, I reserved my comments on this.

My advice to people hoping to provide Chinese Metaphysics services in the southern hemisphere is to consider pick up Zi Wei Dou Shu instead of Ba Zi.  Zi Wei Dou Shu’s evolvement has no link with the sun and seasonal fluctuation. 

I do agree with this author that a lot of the practitioners in this field have been unconvincing, subjective or even suffered from compulsive placebo.  Some are a case of the blind following a blind.  Others think by following classical text to a T, they are adopting best Feng Shui practices.  Let’s not forget there is a context behind every classical text.  It is also foolish to think every classical text are written, printed or passed down correctly to modern time practitioners.   What makes matter worse is that this field is not entirely science given some of its art and observational science roots, and therefore looks mystical or hogwash to people who are unable to comprehend a sophisticated system.  It is for these reasons that Feng Shui was banned or had restricted circulation during certain era or certain dynasty.  Over the decades and centuries, some information would have been misplaced, some would have been warped and the rest would have been manipulated.  These developments lend to the presence of quacks and half-baked practitioners that give Feng Shui a bad name.  A conscientious practitioner should identify the relevant and correct theory to use and adapt them to the modern context.

Last but not least, despite viewing Chinese Metaphysics in the similar mould as Statistical Study, I will never put it in the same league.  This is because in carrying out statistical experiments, it is easy to control the environment and the statistical objects because they are inanimate.  In Chinese Metaphysics, we are dealing with humans and both external and internal environments which are highly dynamic.  Even if we manage to isolate the humans for Chinese Metaphysics statistical correlation study, we cannot control fully the environment of any Chinese Metaphysics statistical experiment.

thanks heres a case study:

wu ding xin
xu  you hai

Wu girl born of wealthy parents in Sydney, became a prostitute cause she doesnt like bosses amongst other things. Somewhat agressive